Jonathan Strange for District Court: What a Great Judge Looks Like

Peter Pappas: Mm-hmm. Well, everybody, good evening and welcome to the Carolina Cabinet. I'm your host, Peter Pappas, alongside my partner in political crime, the lovely Laura Mussler. Hello, hello. Hello, hello. I like being a criminal. That sounds fun. We have a very packed show tonight. You know, we're gonna discuss ongoing controversy surrounding data centers and whether local political activism has crossed the line from advocacy into intimidation. We'll talk about North Carolina General Assembly's override of Governor Josh Stein's. veto on school choice legislation and ask whether education dollars should follow schools or students. We are joined tonight by Mr. Jonathan Strange, local attorney, who is seeking a seat on the Cumberland County District Court. Welcome sir. Good evening. So as always, our goal isn't to tell you what we what to think, but is to give you a a conservator a voice, challenge assumptions, and have the conversations others won't have in polite company anyway. So welcome. It's been a whole what? week since we've been on. It has been. Has been a whole week. It was Monday last week, right? That's correct. We did not go on on Wednesday. We didn't go Wednesday. Yeah, we took a break. You know, I took a little break before that because of dad, but you know, we're back. Breaks are necessary. Breaks are good. Yes, yes, yes. ⁓ well Laura, we got to talk about some school choice. I well I mean did we get in any trouble in the last week? We normally go around and say, hey, what are you up to? And I have not gotten in any trouble. I have I have gotten interviews and I'm actually scheduled for callback in or second interviews, so I'm I'm on my way to getting a job. ⁓ these are real jobs. One's with the bank and one's with the airport, so I'm down. I knew you weren't that desperate. Well, whatever. ⁓ hey. Next week it's like awaiting tables. I would wait tables next week. Yes you would. Yes you would. So ⁓ yeah, I ⁓ whoa, hello. Why is that ⁓ why is that doing that? ⁓ I'm sure it's the computer and not the user. It's it's user for sure. I'm not even gonna cry about that one. Okay, so guys, they changed all this crap around on me, so let me make this thing. How was your weekend? You had some visitors. Visitors. Did you? Yes. ⁓ I had a full house of visitors. Yes, I did. yeah. A girlfriend came up from Myrtle Beach and brought her girls and that was such a cute little candy thingy. Did you see that? That was really sweet of them, I thought. Yeah. They they made a Peter survival kit for me. It was ⁓ it was a jar full of like candy, 'cause you know, fat kid like candy. And ⁓ then there was like notes in there and stuff. But you know, I thought it was very, very cute. And it's very sweet. Very sweet, yes. It seems like her kids are very, very well put together. They are. Trying to soften you up a little bit. Probably. Yeah. I mean, you know what? Well take off the hard I'm a big old softy side. The hard edges. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of edges. There's a lot of edges. See I don't see the hard edge. I see them to other people, but the people that know him. I you know, I save my the best stuff like that for other people. That's I I will say that like for my family and friends. I love them, whatever. But when it comes to, you know, the externalities, I'm like, yeah, you're gonna Yeah. Yeah. So ⁓ yeah, I had a full house. Jonathan, what you been up to the last week or so? Any vacations or I'm ⁓ Jonathan does not take vacations. No, we're going to we're going to Pennsylvania in sixty days. Monica told me earlier, she said, Remember we are going out of town in sixty days and ⁓ that's a very rare thing indeed. And she's counting that down? She is ⁓ very much counting that down. Yeah. What's in what's in Pennsylvania? We ⁓ her so she's from Philly and ⁓ And her I I'd say I call him nephew, but I guess it's technically a cousin is getting married in Lancaster County and ⁓ so we're going up for a wedding. ⁓ first week of August. And ⁓ yeah, it's very rare for us to take any time off and ⁓ I guess we're going up for a week, we're gonna get a Not a typical lawyer life, it sounds like. I mean like I thought you lawyers like every weekend you're going someplace. Fri Friday at noon you're out, that's all right. Not not me. I worked I work till five o'clock on Friday and yeah. And then and I can attest to that. I've I've caught him working. Yeah, and Monica and I work together, so even when I get home we ⁓ we just keep working. So yeah Well you have your wish. Your wife has joined us in the chat. So ⁓ that's gonna be trouble. So yeah. I well somebody's gotta be the governor on you. Like, you know, I'm sure we gotta keep you in line a little bit. But ⁓ well let's let's jump into ⁓ school choice a little bit. So the I think it's one of the biggest political battles in North Carolina. ⁓ it's who decides where a child goes to school. The General Assembly overrode Governor Josh Stein's veto and moved forward with House Bill eighty seven. So either they call it educational freedom as a supporter or opponents think it's another step toward privatizing education. Well who knows what's best for a child though, the government or the or the parent? Always the parent. Always the par always. Well, if you're a normal human being. But I mean there are some bad parents, I would say that. ⁓ do we consider ourselves normal human beings? I mean Yeah. We My last name is strange. Okay. So ⁓ so yeah, you're you're kinda just right off the bat. You know, I've got to start off that that I'm not going to be a normal human being. No, you know, I used to be a teacher. Before I went to law school I was a teacher. Yeah. Okay. And so I I think I think that I have a little bit of a little bit of a bias on this one in just that I I I love education just to begin with. And but the idea that ⁓ parents need to be engaged in education to begin with. And every opportunity that a parent has to participate in education I think is important. And and if you get to participate in choosing where your child goes to school, I think I think that from the beginning that's just an important part of the of the process. Well, I mean we all have to pay in. We all pay taxes. We all go into school. Even those without children. Yeah, even those without children pay in. So I feel like the voucher program or or what have you is just an opportunity for you to determine where did your money get spent. I think that's correct. You know. ⁓ but ⁓ I think this bill what it actually did was a lot of people think it just directly sends state money to private schools. That's not what's happening. ⁓ this law, this H B eighty seven, is that the one? Yep. All right, I say it again, right? Okay. So the H B eighty seven, ⁓ it opts North Carolina into a federal tax credit scholarship program so that you as an individual can get a tax credit up to seventeen hundred dollars for contributions to approved scholarship organizations. Then they can fund scholarships and educational expenses from that. So it's basically just like a tax exemption. It's not free money to the schools. Correct. So ⁓ again, Governor Joss Stein vetoed it. The General Assembly, still having an a majority, was able to override it. And what do we think though about vouchers taking money from the schools? I think the vouchers should I mean the schools should be fighting for the children anyway. back when we went to school there were things in in our classrooms that we had. We we were given extracurricular activities and nowadays the only thing you get are are basic and they're not even that good. Education with no frills, no extras, no bonuses, no nothing, and you're just learning how to take a test. And a lot of kids graduate without high school. I want the or without being able to read. I want these schools to be competing for the children so that I can decide. There is nobody that's going to decide for my children who they can't help okay, so Well, nobody knows your kids better than you. That's right. So I can make the best decisions and they say, well, that'll leave the poor students behind or or whatever. No, if you are a in in a poorer or or less developed neighborhood or group of people and you decide that you want your children to go to a different school, the idea is that you're raising people that will come back to the community and give back. Who better to give back to your community than the people that come from the community? So you're ⁓ not only are you helping your own children, but you're helping future hopefully helping future children, my opinion. I've argued with people online or in person, whatever. It's it's more like people say, well, we shouldn't be giving vouchers out because that takes away from the schools, but we're a large enough economy that we can afford to do both. We can afford to let you as a parent have the voucher and send your kid where you want and fully fund public schools. But i this is part of a larger trend. This didn't just start yesterday. No, it's been it's like thirty years. The last decade we've had charter schools more prevalent in North Carolina. Opportunity scholarships became more prevalent, and Cumberland County is one of the higher recipients of opportunity scholarships. ⁓ education savings options like the five two nine, stuff like that. Federal tax credit, what they just passed in North Carolina. So ⁓ vouchers is not the only thing we have going for us education wise in North Carolina. But There's other stuff. But see, why should because of the neighborhood that I've was born in or raised in or whatever dictate the fact that I'm gonna get a substandard education? It shouldn't. If if the money is following me as a child, pretend I'm a child, I'm well past being a child, but and I can for my children give put them in somewhere where they can learn something and be more productive, that's what I would wanna do. Why is it because the zip code I live in, I have to have substandard education? Unacceptable. Well remember they had Leandro that said you had to have every school had to have sound basic education. Most vague legal term. That's very vague legal term, I think. Well, I mean you have to remember that the law really kind of focuses on dancing around vague legal terms. It's it's it's the world that the law, you know, plays in because the vaguer legal terms are than then the more room there is to maneuver or interpret to interpret. Yeah. I I think it was intentionally vague. It's so that it could be built out. It has to be intentionally vague. Yeah. You know, anytime you start talking about some sort of government function, you have to leave things intentionally vague because if you if you put things into too tight of a box, then you then you prohibit then you prohibit the kind of necessity in inherent in the government that we're living in. And what I mean by that is is that if you if you if you just put everybody into a very small square and say this is how it has to be, then we eliminate the need for us to have any sort of representation whatsoever. The people lose all choice when we say this is how it has to be. Right? And so you have to leave things intentionally vague. You have to give the people the opportunity to kind of feel out about about what it's supposed to be. And this is why I think that school choice becomes so important because it gives parents the opportunity to say, this is really more in line with what my child needs, right? ⁓ both of our daughters went to Massy Hill, okay? Public school. It's a school choice though, that we got to pick because we got to make the decision that what our daughters needed more than anything was that environment. Small school, very focused, and but we got to make that choice. We could have sent them to Grace Creek High School. That was within the Cumberland County School system. And there and not all not all the public schools are bad. Right. Exactly. And and that's kind of the point that I'm trying to make, right? Is that we had lots of opportunities and lots of choices on their education. But for us, what was the best choice was Massy Hill. It was an excellent school. And a classical school education was what we decided was in their best interest. But we as parents got to make that decision. And being within the public school system was what was in our child's best interest. And by empowering parents to make that decision, by empowering parents to have that kind of engagement with their child's lives and with their child's future, that's really What I think becomes most important, when you strip that away, you're really relegating parents to the sidelines. And that's what that that's the problem with with with a less conservative viewpoint on things. When you when you put everything into the hands of the government, again, with less vague instructions under the Lee Andrew decision, okay. When you give everything into government definitions, ⁓ parents are completely out of it. And and and that's the complete opposite of what we need as a society is a government defining everything that we need within our families. Well, we've got in Cumberland County, we're apparently forty eight to fifty thousand students that we have here. but increase or decrease in school participation in the county. ⁓ by giving vouchers and other options, it messes with the enrollment, the state funding formulas that state schools do get, how much staffing they need, long term planning. So it hits very close to home when we have when we say that we're the largest recipient of opportunity scholarship, that means there's a lot fewer kids going to public school. And that's going to mess with what the public schools I mean what happens with the guys that remain behind? Do they So say a bunch of kids get vouchers and they they just make an exodus from the school system, what happens to the kids left behind? I would think if you're competing for okay, so to me I like competition. I think competition drives the best out of everybody. If there's no competition, how can you be striving to be better? So if the school public schools are not competing for a child for their education dollars, then they're just getting by. ⁓ you know I think there's a very entrenched attitude among administrators and people that are in the higher echelons of our schools, that ⁓ competition never really entered the arena. It should. It it absolutely. I mean, think about it. When you're let let's pretend for a moment you're running a race and you're running against five people that aren't really that in your league. So you race ahead of them, you're gonna run r a slower time because there's nobody breathing down your neck. Now if you run against the guy that's second in the league And he's right there and you're running, you run, it's it's proven fact over time. You run faster because now you're driving yourself. So why not let the schools compete? Because now, ⁓ that school's giving auto shop? Well, let's give home ec or whatever. So now you're gonna start competing and give better teachers, better classes, better everything and just Competition is good. And nowadays everybody wants to get a participation trophy. There is no participation in school. You go and you get a good education and compete for my tax dollars. There's some trophies are out there you can get participation wise. Like for the for the third grade graduations. Have you seen this? Like kids in elementary school now, there's like fifth grade graduations and stuff. It's like, come on, guys. You're not Why are we celebrating them showing up every day? But anyway, ⁓ so let's ask anybody that's watching, ⁓ You know, would you rather have one excellent public school system for everybody or multiple educational options competing for students? A combination of both. It's not an either or can't have A or B. It has to be C. It's it's it can be a combination of both. There's not a a one size fits all. It would be great if we could have a great public school system and then people still have the option to have private schools. Right, right. Well, and like I said earlier, we have a large enough economy, we can do both. Right. That's what people they they're so adamant about. ⁓ it's taking funding. It's taking funding from those schools. Yeah, it's taking funding of kids that aren't there. Like if the kid doesn't show up on the day that they count, then they wouldn't be paid for that kid anyway. Right. But so But don't you think that one of the arguments then becomes is is if we have such a large and robust economy, then why are we why are we still not having s sufficient funding in our public school system? I mean, doesn't doesn't that kind of become the the counter argument to what you're saying then? And let's go down the red rabbit hole. You know, Donald Trump wants to get rid of the US Department of Education. Because they've proven since nineteen seventy two or seventy, they've thrown a shitload of money at this thing. Can you say that word online? Yeah, I can. Okay. They've thrown a load of money at this thing. Yeah. They're late. And ⁓ and and the test scores and the results of our the math and science scores of our students have decreased. Over that same time here. So I think it's a case study that the more money you throw at something isn't necessarily the cure all, because where that money gets eaten up is with consultants and administration and bureaucracy to administer all that money. Sure. So I I feel like there's with a better economy, people will be demanding that our children are prepared for that economy in the future. And just by extension, they're gonna demand better schools and demand funding of those schools. But do we Do we if we just if we're gonna keep going down that rabbit hole then, are we gonna start throwing more money into private education and then start demanding to see results and then are we just gonna end up chasing you know, our tail into the same into the same hole that we're Schools already compete, which is why you most people choose there's one school here that it's like there's a waiting list, it's very expensive to get in because they by far give in my what my opinion is. an excellent, excellent education. More of their students go on to college and create things than other schools. So private schools are already competing for your dollars. I need to honor my ⁓ rhino credibility here and I need to say that I do agree with some opponents on the left that ⁓ private schools are not held to the same standard as a public school because there's not the testing, stuff like that. And also the knowledge that some private schools have raised their tuition. Now that there's government funding with these vouchers. So I have a couple of pain points with the private schools, but I do think that they will give a better basic education than what can be obtained through our public schools right now. But I think we have to acknowledge the reality that some of these schools did raise their prices. And that if they're getting government money, they should probably be held to the same standard to make sure that the kids are coming out with a sound basic education and but but but when you look at the Okay, so we talked about this last year. That's right. The testing scores are not there because they're not learning how okay, so they're not being taught the test. Right. Because the public schools right now are teaching you that this is white, this is white. When I ask you a question, this is white. Well, the private schools are learning, explain to me what color this is and why. So when you get to the test, they're like, Well, let me see and they think about things and they're not necessarily when I ask you this question, it's like sight words and stuff like that. You can't memorize the English language where pu Private schools are learning so the this private school students are going further in life and the public school students are learning how to take a test. That's why their test scores are higher. But when it comes after school, private school students are better they're doing better because they've been taught how to study and research and to critically think. Right. Not just pass that test. So I mean I remember Dewey Decimal is one of my best friends. Yeah, well I mean, you I was in the library a lot. ⁓ But you had to learn how to study. You had to learn how to research and outline things. My goodness, outlining a letter before you write it. Yeah. I don't do that anymore. I just run with it. So You let AI run with it. I let AI give me an outline. I don't let AI write things for me. So all right. See, I do the opposite of what you do. I actually ⁓ You write first. I write first and then I give it and be like help me under help me to make this clear. I do the opposite because I like to think things through and what do I want to say and then tell me, am I saying what I want to say? So I do the opposite of the button. It depends what I'm writing for. If I'm writing for ⁓ well, I won't say which room, but ⁓ there's certain rooms I'll say, now make this that a fifth grader can understand it. Ooh, you give it all the way to the fifth graders? Some yeah, in some rooms. Yeah. I'm like second grade. I'll let y'all speculate on which rooms those are so We're talking about if public money is involved, should public accountability follow? And to me, it's the same thing as me banging the drum for nonprofits that take money. Shouldn't you know, they have to have a standard. Why not those schools? Of a standard set of books that we can examine and then a standard set of results to meet curriculum and meet ⁓ out because they're teaching two totally different things. Private schools and public schools do not teach the same things. Well, I didn't say there's a benchmark that we're just gonna stop funding them if they don't meet. I'm just saying we should at least know what we're paying for. Right. I mean, I think enforcement would be next. Like i if they constantly score low for ten years in a row on reading comprehension, then maybe we need to re examine why we're bothering. But I think the problem becomes that when we start looking at the US Department of Education, we talk about the fact that we've been throwing more and more money and driving that money into the ground. And we ultimately view that through the lens of test scores and the results following test scores. Once we start establishing benchmarks, all right, and we start saying that we expect private schools to meet the same benchmarks, that we are trying to acknowledge that the Department of Education has failed in trying to to chase benchmarks, then ultimately I think that what we're trying to say is we potentially run the risk of the voucher program driving private schools into the same hole that public schools that we're that we're saying that public schools are in. This is the part where I say, look, I'm just a sandwich maker, what do you want out of me? You know, but there there are smarter men than me that can need to figure this out. But I I think it's it's a good point. Maybe maybe all this good thinking I think I'm doing is going to result in driving these poor private schools and we're back at the square one. So maybe Who knows? I'll give you I'll give you credit. You you you're right. You're right. So ⁓ well ⁓ enough. You know, so I think the biggest question is do education dollars belong to school systems or students? I think we've we pretty much agree that it's all students we need to follow. And ⁓ depending on how you feel about that, that probably says where you stand on school choice. So now I know where I stand. I know where you stand. Well, United We f ⁓ You know, you know, we stand. Come on. That's right. So I went to a baseball game Saturday. Yeah. My favorite part of the baseball game, I told DS that I just have to be in the seat for the national anthem. After that, we can do whatever, we can go to the bar, we can go eat, we can do whatever we want. I hope you're not in your seat for the national anthem. No, I mean at my seat. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ and one one note of bouginess, I will say, I do have season tickets to the Woodpeckers and now they put your name on the seat. Ooh. Yeah, I was like, ⁓ and The lady walked me down there and I said, Yeah, that's me. She goes, ⁓ that's you. I'm like, Yeah, that's me. It's my name. My name. How nice. Where do you where do you sit? first row behind home plate, seat one and two. Nice. Right there. Right there. Right there. So it's ⁓ yeah. That's the only way to watch. I I bought I bought some cheap seats over there on the first baseline. I was like, I don't like this. I gotta turn my head. ⁓ my gosh, he's gotta turn head. It's first world problems, baby. Yes. I have a lot of first world problems. I'll get to some later. Okay, we're gonna shift to data centers. So over the last several weeks, Fayetteville has seen packed city council meetings, citizen rallies, social media campaigns, and increasingly personal pressure directed at certain elected officials over the possibility of future data center development. Now, let's be clear a hundred and ten percent citizens have the right to organize, protest. Actually. Well they don't have the right to protest. They have the right to assemble. But that's how a representative government works. However, elected officials also have a responsibility to make decisions, sometimes very unpopular ones, based on what they believe is in the long term interest of the community. So tonight the question isn't simply whether data centers are good or bad. But the bigger question is at what point does citizen activism become intimidation? Now Okay, but I I will say that you do not have the right to protest. That is not a right. You have the right to assemble. There's a difference. Is this one of your ⁓ social studies Bowl questions that you tripped me up on earlier this year when asking me constitutional questions? I'm just saying nowhere in the constitution does it sa say you have the right to protest. It says you have the right to assemble. What was that lower on the loose that you did and you were asking what's in the first amendment or something? ⁓ yeah, you're you have different rights. Yeah, I screwed that one up big time. Yeah. We won't give it to Attorney Strange over here. But I bet you if we asked private clas private ⁓ private school students, they would know. Well, I was a private school kid and I forget. So yeah, but you're old. So the way the way I prefaced that intro that I just ⁓ repeated for you guys, ⁓ there was a protest held on Saturday regarding, you know, no y no data center. And now one of the ridiculous things I saw out of it, which It said no to Dino's UDOs. So I want to know from the crowd what does UDO stand for? Unified Development Ordinance. So essentially Fayeville Freedom for All was protesting not to have a unified development ordinance. So they don't want our standard. See, I think they're misappropriating some of the terms. ⁓ so Councilman Dino Hondras, ⁓ He is a commercial realtor just like I am. He is ⁓ he's another Greek guy. So, you know, we know each other. ⁓ but you say it like all the Greeks know each other. Well we do. They do. You know the one the ones here do. Okay. But the thing is, it it kind of spilled over. He's using his expertise from his industry and applying it at City Council. And he he is of the mind that we need to set the table for any data center because we have an absence of of a mention of data centers in our UDO, our Unified Development Ordinance. So the protests kind of surrounded like ⁓ going against Dino. I think they've misunderstood a lot of what is being asked. But I do want to read ⁓ a little bit of this ⁓ statement from Fayeval Freedom for All because in light of recent revelations related to an incident that occurred on Saturday at a council member's place of work, Fayetteville Freedom for All has decided to pull out of the data center rally this evening, which is tonight at City Council. We still intend to pack the city council meeting in anticipation of tonight's vote, but we will not participate in the rally itself. ⁓ let's see. Organization prides itself on engaging elected officials and organizing the community around issues they care about in a healthy, productive and democratic manner. We were not involved in the planning or promoting of the protests that occurred on Saturday, that was organized by another individual or group that are also opposing changes to the UDO. We do not condone what's being described as political bullying, and we've decided to pull out of this rally in order to protect the integrity and reputation of our work. So I appreciate Fable Freedom for All making that statement. I don't know if they have necessarily internal splintering or they're just trying to find some cover from ⁓ what happened on Saturday. So what happened is a couple of them went over to Mr. Hondros's place of work and wrote on the sidewalk a bunch of stuff in chalk. Okay, well whoever did that, you're not very bright. You didn't even smell community, right? Yeah. Community has two M's yeah going forward. So and I've already asked some people in their community, I said, Is that your handiwork? And ⁓ I was told no, I I I don't I don't use chalk. So if I offended you, I'm glad. That's okay. Get a book, man. I mean that's the thing. If you're gonna be angry and should have run that through AI. Yeah, if you really Yeah. The the very thing they're protesting, right? ⁓ And that that's the the distinction I've made too is like, okay, you're bitching about this on Facebook. You you realize you you're using a a data center to do that. That's right. But but data centers do generally suck. So here's the the proposed favoura project. So there has been there's roughly fifty acres near Dunroad. So this is what everybody is so aggravated about. ⁓ it's gonna be approximately six point four billion in investment. That seems awful high. But that's They gotta run all the water that they're gonna steal from us and the electricity that they're gonna steal from us out there. It would be considered among the largest private investments ever proposed in the region. And I think the scale alone explains why emotions are so tense. Now, no project has been approved. That's one distinction I do want to say. No major data center project has been approved. This fight is around moratorium requests, ordinance languages, zoning restrictions, public hearings. Now, Mr. Attorney Strange. Mr Attorney Strange. Mr. Attorney. Moratorium and pause are don't those end up being legal terms at a certain point? Is that why we've seen so much kind of and I'm asking you as a as a Yeah, I think not as a subject matter expert on this, but Yeah, I think as a legal term they become very, very distinct. ⁓ you know, when you once you say moratorium, you know, you're you're really nixing Mm the entire ⁓ the whole conversation. The whole conversation. Yeah. You know, you're done at that at that point. ⁓ pause means we need time to think about it. And those are very, very distinct. Okay. You know, once once you say moratorium, you say we're done talking about it. ⁓ when you say pause, you it's it's kinda like tabling a motion, you know, at a at a at a council hearing or commission hearing, you're saying we're gonna discuss this. So those can end up being very much binding legal terms. ⁓ yeah, very much. ⁓ You know, you when you start getting into rules of parliamentary procedure and and that sort of thing, proper minutes being kept on ⁓ on the record, that sort of thing, I think that you you really are talking about very, very distinct ⁓ Okay. Well, and I bring that I bring that up because I want to kind of identify with the trepidation we get from council and commission on just saying put a moratorium or put a pause because there's the legal ramifications that go along with that. ⁓ speaking to certain commission members. It's like, look, we don't have any rules whatsoever about these data centers. So if you get essentially an evil, bad actor corporation to come in here, we have a blank slate of property, and they say, I want to open a data center and we haven't gotten our stuff together with the ordinances, they could sue us for not allowing them to use their property the way they want. You know, yeah, because right now, right, I think that Right now, if you have somebody come in and who attempts to use the property, they're going to be stuck under current zoning regulations and that sort of thing. So they're going to have to just apply under the current under the current current zoning laws. And then you're correct. Anything that comes up before the commissioners or anything that comes up before the city council is going to fall under the standard zone under the under the current regulations. I think they would be applying for a variance and then because but see the thing is they can apply for a variance, but just because we emotionally don't agree with that no, you're you're absolutely correct. Doesn't they apply for a variance and then it's going to have to go through the standard variance considerations. And if if that's denied, you're absolutely correct. You you can end up in a lawsuit. Does that mean you necessarily end up in a lawsuit? No. But when you start talking about somebody wanting to spend billions of dollars. If you don't think that they are going to be prepared to spend millions of dollars in legal fees to spend billions of dollars in development, I think that you you need to ⁓ really reconsider where your head's at on that. Which means millions of taxpayer dollars defending. That's that absolutely means millions of taxpayer dollars defending. And so so again, not taking a position one way or the other on whether or not I like data centers, but the idea that you need some sort of guidelines on how these things are going to be controlled, ⁓ I think that that's smart. Now, in general, I'm not a regulation guy. Yeah. I don't like anybody telling other people how they can use their property. ⁓ but when you start looking at something that has clearly struck such a nerve, I think it's incredibly important that everybody take a breath and say, before we just ruin everybody's day, we need to have an opportunity to really come to together and have as many minds looking at this as possible. And man, when you start talking about one person who has a commercial development background, you have another person who comes in and has ⁓ just other real estate development background, you have construction background, you have as many different backgrounds as you can. And you know, presumably people elected their member of the city council for for whatever purpose they saw, for whatever background purpose they saw. ⁓ that they bring something to the table to help them come up with a a solid core, a solid foundation on how these things can be developed. And that's kind of the best you can do. Right. Right? We're gonna put together the best we can with what we've got. And a lot of times that's all you can do. We're gonna do the best we can with what we've got. And we've asked Chairman Devier from the County Commission, you know, like, are you guys starting from scratch? No. They're looking at other communities and Other areas. ⁓ I think even city council last meeting, one of the planners even mentioned Tucson, Arizona as as a case study of how to maybe shape our policy here. So it's not like we're depending on nine council people to come up with this. We're we're dealing with best practice. So I went because of our last conversation, I might might have gone down a rabbit hole just in the middle of the night when I couldn't sleep. There you go. Talk about people where they have built data centers. And the people that are near the data centers, the homes that they're near and things like that, they incessantly complain. There's a hum. Everybody knows what they're talking about. There's a hum that goes that there's no peaceful. They say birds don't fly over the data data centers. They I mean there com there's like some very serious It's almost like living next to a drop zone at Fort Bragg. Birds fly in drop zones. I that damn red. But I mean y you're not it's not like that there's something spinning around and the birds are getting killed or whatever. The the birds don't fly over or get near the data centers. That has got to tell you that they can't be very good for you if the animals instinctively stay away. Yeah, but the same i and and again They gotta go there's deserts out there, go put ⁓ in the desert. But you know, and I'm not taking a position on this. It's the the same thing goes on with with solar panel fields. You know, w when when they were when they were first starting the development of of the ⁓ the use solar farm is is inappropriate, but when they were s first starting to put solar farms in in Grace Creek, you know, all the wildlife disappears. Everything is gone. One of the things they don't prepare you for is if you're in a neighborhood near where they're putting a solar farm in, you know where all the rodents that are in those fields go? They go right into your neighborhood. And ⁓ since all of the since all of the Coyotes and other the and the the hogs. As we take up their land, of course they're going to everything goes straight into the urban sprawl still, even if it's not a house. It's still exactly yes. So there are all sorts of things that that people are not prepared for. ⁓ so I I fully expect that that sort of thing's going to happen. But but development is going to happen, period. And whether it's going to be industrial development, commercial development, residential residential development. We're going to continue to see some form of development in Cumberland County. I'm not opposed to development, but it's gotta be cost if there's no you you're talking about maybe forty jobs. You're talking about thousands of gallons of water, you're talking about ⁓ numerous amounts of elect kilowatts or whatever they call of electricity. Well, and again, the electricity and the water is con is a concern, but that doesn't mean that these people aren't gonna make the efforts to bring their own water in power. Do we even know? We don't see that would be something that they would have to do. They would have to either bring their own water from wherever or filtrate it out and make sure that it's not doesn't have more PFAS and we enough PFAS here for a He said gonna they want to pass legislation for, you know, making data centers bring their own power and water. Mm-hmm. However, comma, see I did it right. He made there is no legislation on the books. It sounded good. It was a hell of a soundbite. But We're not there yet. And but now I do believe that's what they're they're trying to do though is come up with legislation. So everybody take a pawhause. North Carolina legislature has already ⁓ put some guardrails up. And I think ⁓ I just think this is a big evolving issue. I don't think it's one municipality is gonna deal with this. ⁓ but definitely water is always an issue. We don't want to increase the concentration of PFAS here. We already have that issue. You mentioned that earlier. Right. the electrical. We already have a grid that we buy everything from Duke Energy. ⁓ there was some talk about Fort Bragg getting some portable nuclear reactors. And I said, bring three. Why not? If they're self contained, man, bring ⁓ You know, not only that, but we could use the power, but we could use the training for our next generation of employees. Exactly. So ⁓ but as far as jobs go, I think best number I've seen was 40 that would be permanent. But that is separated from the construction jobs. I would say there'd be a lot of construction jobs to start with, but then they would all those people would get laid off or but as with consultants, so is with contractors. We'd bring them in from outside anyway. Yes, not like We love some foreign contractors and ⁓ we love to get spend our money outside of our community. So let me bring you up to speed on what the government actually has done at this point. For the county, they have had several public hearings. ⁓ moratorium proposals have been drafted. Nothing finalized. There's more hearings gonna be conducted, and from what we're told, commissioners will continue evaluating the restrictions and definitions. So I think they're on that line of the legal ease versus you know getting us in trouble in the future. Now, city of Fayetteville, council voted five to four to pause the ordinance work. Council later approved a hundred and twenty day delay regarding moratorium consideration. And then a lot of the meetings have featured a lot of public opposition. So there's been a lot of noise. ⁓ I think there was a ⁓ our neighbor across the street got escorted out of the meeting last week. Yes. Yes, she did. Yes, yes. So if a company wants to bring six point four billion dollar investment and hundreds of construction jobs tomorrow, how much inconvenience should citizens be willing to tolerate? I mean, everybody wants growth. I mean the hard part How do you get to decide what's the right growth? What's the trade off? That's the pro it's in house. But I want positive growth for the kids. Let's talk about hoop mills. Everybody wants hope mills to stay small. Whatever, whatever. But so many people have decided I want to live in Hope Mills, which is a good thing. But now we want to determine, well, we don't really like you. We don't want you to come here. Yeah, but who are you to say where I get to live? I don't know. I'm I'm anti data center. I want to use all data. But I don't want him in my back not in my backyard. Well, and I'll I'll ⁓ I'll take it easy on Jonathan. His wife did remind me that he has to hear her position on data centers every day. She she's ⁓ telling you right now ⁓ that ⁓ you know, Monica, we're not gonna not gonna put him in the doghouse tonight. Let him sleep in the bed. Okay. ⁓ I think so. My my thing, I I I'm with you about being against data centers. However, personally I'm a I'm against controlling somebody else's property. And what they can do with it if they meet all the requirements to do it legally and correctly, then you don't get to I I don't want to control what somebody's doing on their property, however, comma. They would be affecting our water and our electricity in our community. So if that's going to be a a say, then I mean you can build whatever you want on your but you provide your own electricity in your own water. If you can do that, you can do whatever you want on your on in your but if it's going to Well you kinda said it. I just finished it. Obviously not cut I'm not cut out for mayors because I was like I just said that. Kind of kind of legitimate issues with the development of data centers in Cumberland County. I think that we in the further down the Cape Here River ⁓ you go, it the the problem continues. I think that we have some unique issues to deal with, in particular in regards to water primarily. ⁓ but man the and the the further down you go the the the problem continues. And so yeah, ⁓ the development of data centers, I think in particular in Cumberland County is a real problem. Speaking of water, did they decide about the Carrie thing? Are they taking our water? ⁓ a few more months we'll have a response. But again, we, Cumberland County, already has an established precedent with ⁓ previously was Carrie, about fifteen, twenty years ago that tried the same thing. It's Fuquays trying now. And because of that is how we have legal precedent that they're not gonna pr they they can't approve it. Not if they're following the law that's passed. Now, there are movements in the legislature to start chipping away at the ⁓ level of water. How do you put this? So the inner basin transfers have to have like triggers on how much water they take and then at what point it goes to public hearing. And they're trying to, I think, raise those limits so that say next time, if the limit is seven million gallons a day. They may not have to go to public opinion. It just it just happens. Yeah, I don't like that. So there there is some movement to do that, but ⁓ I don't think that's gonna catch much traction. I it doesn't sound very Republican. So no it's not in ⁓ One thing I wanted to say before we left this was ⁓ let's do you think protesting outside an elected official's office is fair game? No. No no wait wait wait wait wait wait. Outside of their work their office, yeah. Their their personal work office or o outside of their well if it's your like if you're going to Washington to protest outside of their office where they actually do their the legislating stuff, yeah. Then that's that's That's fair game. But to go because I work as a sandwich maker and I also serve on your do not come out as my sandwich maker, that is a totally different place. No. You well, you can if you buy something, but Yeah, if you're buying food and I don't I don't mind that just you gotta buy a drink or something eventually. So And it's and it's really where where does it say you can protest anyway? On the sidewalk. Well, I guess not in the Constitution. So are you are you really asking then Is it okay for people to assemble outside of an elected official? There you go. That's there we go. Freedom of assemble. You can assemble wherever you want. I mean. And I mean at the end of the day, really, the question becomes can you assemble in a public place? And I think the answer is yes. The answer is yes. Mm-hmm. And if that public place happens to be outside of an elected official's place of business, then the answer is yes. You can. And and and it's just plain and simple. The that the answer to that is yes. I don't think morally though you should but but and and I mean I hate to I hate to be the lawyer on this one, but I don't know that that really matters in this situation. Yeah, because nobody has morals anymore. Well it's not even it's not even it's not even about the morals here. Now now here's here's what about the effectiveness. What is the effectiveness of trying to embarrass somebody at their place of work? Well you know i I think that let me just let me draw a really, really fine line here though. Okay, it's one thing to assemble, it's another thing to break the law. Okay. And you really, really have to be careful on that. Okay. ⁓ people complaining about elected officials, complete people complaining about the government. I believe we 100% have a constitutional right to do that, and I encourage people to do that at every opportunity. and I I I think that my parents taught me that from a very young age. that you know, this this is this is the heart and soul of what our country was born on. And so we need to recognize that we have the right to do that, right? Crossing the line into breaking the law is g is an entirely different thing altogether. Now, the effectiveness of it ⁓ becomes something entirely different because as soon as you begin to interfere with someone's ability to conduct business, because now you've you've you've gone into no longer assembling ⁓ peacefully, ⁓ but now into potentially breaking the law. And and at that point you're doing something entirely different. And I think that that's why the fine the line becomes so fine. And again, sometimes why the law ⁓ is written in such a vague manner that it it that it's up to the courts to determine ⁓ what exactly is going on. ⁓ you know, doing something on public property, assembling on public property ⁓ breaking out some chalk and and spelling words incorrectly because you don't know how to use a dictionary. You are free to demonstrate your lack of education. Okay. And as a as a public official, I think that's part of what you sign up for, right? Is that that people are going to object to some of the decisions that you make. ⁓ I can remember ⁓ Last summer, all right, ⁓ Judge Jim Ammons, some some vile things being said about Jim Ammons in front of his place of business, which is also ⁓ the courthouse, since you know, he works in a at the courthouse. Right. But some vile things being said about him based on decisions that he was be making as a judge, right? ⁓ but that's that's the job. Mm-hmm. And and I think here with Councilman Hondros being subjected to decisions that he's made as part of the job, that's that's part of of what he signed up for. And his willingness to step into that, I think he should be applauded for because he is making hard decisions ⁓ by being willing to step forward and say, Here is what I think we need to do. And then I think he needs to be supported for being willing to do that. Right. ⁓ but just as there are people who are opposing him in doing that, I think there'd be need to be people who are assembling to support him in that. Where's my chuck? He he certainly he certainly put his neck out there. Two M's. Yeah, I know how to spell community, but yeah. He certainly has put his neck out there. ⁓ I know that he's had a couple of pretty rough weeks up there. ⁓ and he's been in the minority. in some of these votes and some of these opinions. So, you know, it's tough to ⁓ stand up and do that. But ⁓ I think it's time we just pivot to tonight's guest and in full time. This is gonna be your full segment. So, you know, you're seeking a seat on the Cumberland County District Court. Most voters are going to know the candidates for president or governor because that's like the sexy races, but you know, far fewer know the judicial races. I mean, you guys I always feel like you guys are quiet races, but Before discussing the campaign you're gonna run, let's talk about your s you and the job itself. So tell us about you, Jonathan. Jonathan, you know, it's you're talking about things being quiet and just as we've sat here tonight talking about ⁓ issues. Mm-hmm. I don't ever talk about issues. I don't ever talk about my opinion on stuff because most of the time my opinion on stuff is irrelevant because my job is to deal with whatever Is in front of you. Whatever's in front of me and whatever my client's opinion is. So it's kind of been ⁓ well no you don't ever have a client that says is ⁓ guilty. My clients are never guilty. They're never guilty. Yeah. Okay. ⁓ so ⁓ my name's Jonathan Strange. ⁓ I'm an attorney here in Cumberland County. I'm a general practice attorney. I've been practicing for just under eighteen years. I'm originally from South Louisiana. ⁓ I was a teacher before I went to law school, ⁓ public school teacher. I taught ⁓ middle school social studies, although I'm also certified to teach high school. Taught for a year back in Louisiana, taught four years in Wake County before I went to ⁓ law school at Campbell. You look like a teacher. Doesn't he look like teacher? He does look he has a teacher looking at What does that mean? Yeah, yeah. I even I genuinely like one of those smart guys that's high school. Okay, students, you just look like that. ⁓ okay. Okay. I'm a smart guy that says, Okay students, got it. Everybody take your seats. Take your seats. We'll just cover the bare minimum right now, yeah. Okay, so you've been practicing for how long here in Cumberland County? Eighteen years. Why do they call it practice? Practice? Because you because you never ⁓ master it. Right. You genuinely never master it. ⁓ so when I came to Cumberland County, I was in the district attorney's office. ⁓ Ed Grannis brought me here to practice as a assistant district attorney ⁓ in district court ⁓ and then started doing low level felony work. When I left the DA's office, I did criminal defense for about ⁓ eight or nine years. And then somewhere around eight or nine years ago I began to transition into civil litigation, started out in landlord tenant law, and most of my practice now is in is in civil litigation, primarily in real estate contract litigation. ⁓ litigation just means lawsuits. ⁓ means that we ⁓ deal with people who are fighting over real estate fights. So you mentioned working in the DA's office, ⁓ and then you were doing low level felonies. Is there is there a career path? Is that how they put them like, okay, you practice this for a while and then you go to this, or is it just your own talents kind of lead the way as to where you end up or what kind of work you do for the DA? Yeah, I think everybody kind of starts out in the dis in district court where you handle traffic cases, DWIs, misdemeanors, that sort of thing. And then as you progress in your ability, begin to show what your capabilities are, they begin to elevate you into handling lower level felony cases. And that's what I started doing after about a year. Began to work with one of the district attorneys who handled more high level stuff. He was I was kind of assigned to him. He was a a mentor of mine, ⁓ and he began to help me understand how to work felony cases. They kind of give you stuff that's very, very easy. ⁓ nothing very complicated at first. And they just say, hey, you know, take off and tell me what you would do with this. And what would be a lower level felony that they would have like given you training wheels on? What's one that you got early on? Think things like breaking and entering, ⁓ larceny, felony larceny, things like that. My my very first case ⁓ involved a woman who She had eight cases involving what's called obtaining property by false pretenses. Okay. Which basically says that you got something by telling someone that it was yours, but it wasn't. ⁓ hers involved credit card fraud, as I recall. ⁓ that's one of those rent to owns that they stopped paying. Yeah, yeah. It's been a been a long while, but but she was also an habitual felon. Okay. Okay. She didn't want to plead guilty and it bec and she was ready to go to trial and so He said, Okay, what would you do with these cases if you wanted to go to trial? And I said, Okay, well this is the strongest one and I said, We'll go to trial with this one and and then when we win with this one, we'll see what happens next and so that's what we did. We got ready to go to trial and she pled. And she pled. And ⁓ so she changed her mind, took the plea offer and and things kind of fell apart from there. I didn't get to go to trial with it and Do you like going to trial? I I do. I do. It's ⁓ It's a very, very unique. It's a very, very unique thing, jury trials. I love being a juror. Do you? ⁓ my gosh, it's my most favorite thing. People either really love it or they really really hate it. and ⁓ or they're terrified of the of the of the prospect of it. But ⁓ but yeah, ⁓ I I love jury trials. It's it's a very, very unique situation. ⁓ I think that when you take the take the job seriously. You know, you I think that attorneys who take jury trials seriously are kind of operating at at kind of peak. at peak like human efficiency. Like your mind is as sharp as it possibly can be. Your body is operating in a different in a different status than it normally is. ⁓ you you kind of get like this low level drip of adrenaline constantly and Sorry. And it's very, very exciting. You're not sleeping very well, but you don't necessarily need to sleep very well just because you're very, very excited about about what you're going to do. And ⁓ yeah, I take I take jury trials very, very serious seriously. I was supposed to be in a jury trial last week and then it got continued till today and then they told us on Friday that it's been continued till next week. So so I've kind of been on this on this extended ⁓ adrenaline rush and ⁓ now I'm exhausted from it. But ⁓ but yeah it's ⁓ I I I do love jury trials. I think they need to change jury jury duty. Any for those of us that love it, we should be able to sign 'cause they're like, okay, you don't need to be a juror for any X amount. No, I want to be a juror. Yeah, call me two years. Call me. I'll be a juror. I I've only been called for jury duty twice. Once I actually served, loved it. I was voted for me. She likes judging other people. That's that's the thing. And the other time they didn't ever have any like you were dismissed before we even had to show up. But like sign me up. Where where do I sign back up? I want to do it again. Yeah, that's that's that would make it illegal. You know, it's gotta be a random a random jury of your peers. Anytime you need a ⁓ juror? She was the hall monitor in school or something. That was just Laura, okay? I love rules. I love rules and I love like hearing about it and all that stuff. So anyway, this is whatever. So ⁓ in the interest of ⁓ loving to judge people, so what does a district court judge do? Why do I care? So everything every every criminal case in North Carolina starts out in district court. So traffic cases, that sort of thing, always resolve in district court, ⁓ unless you go to trial with it, which is very, very rare. But DWIs, district court again, unless ⁓ you appeal and go for a jury trial. But district court is where most low level cases resolve. So traffic offenses, DWIs, misdemeanors. ⁓ all matters involving domestic violence, family law cases, so anything involving child support, child custody, divorce, equitable distribution, those things are all resolved in district court. Also, any matter involving civil litigation up to twenty-five thousand dollars, that's all resolved in district court. ⁓ one of the primary things that gets resolved in district court is ⁓ appeals of ⁓ concealed carry permits. I say it's primary, but one of the things one of the things that that's that most people don't realize when you apply for a concealed carry permit and that's denied, that goes to a district court judge. ⁓ appeals from small claims court go to district court judges. And this is one of the things that ⁓ I think that is most often overlooked is that there's a lot of civil work that is done in the district court courtroom. And this is where We have the least amount of experience in Cumberland County. ⁓ right now we only have one judge in Cumberland County who has really any civil experience. ⁓ that would be Judge Tony King. ⁓ she's the only judge who practiced in the civil courts before before she became a judge. And she's been a judge for ⁓ I think fourteen years, maybe sixteen years at this point. So she's she's been out of practice for a very long time. Outside of that, every one of our judges has a a very distinct criminal law background. And the reason that that becomes a problem is is that when you're in the civil courtroom, if you don't know what you're doing, it creates some very real pro probabilities of of injustice. And that's one of the things that I that I feel has been missing from the district court bench and and also from our superior court bench in in in Cumberland County for a very long time. Now does that mean you're gonna run for Superior Court judge next? Well, that's a that's a different conversation for a for a different time. maybe, but but not not anytime soon. ⁓ Judge Robbie Hicks. I love me, Robbie Hicks. I love me, Robbie. So district in in Cumberland County, district court is a countywide race. And Superior Court is actually cut into districts. Judge Robbie Hicks is ⁓ I'm in I live in District 12 C. Judge Robbie Hicks has four more years in his term. And Judge ⁓ Lou Oliveira is running for the other twelve C C ⁓ he's running unopposed right now, and that will be an eight-year term. So it'd be another four years. I do not anticipate running against ⁓ Robbie Hicks, and so it'd be another eight years before ⁓ I would be kind of even considering. Even considering. ⁓ but but right now I'm focusing on district court because that's where I believe ⁓ I would have the greatest impact. and that that's where you majority practice anyway when you're practice here in front of that. A tremendous amount amount of my practice is in district court. Okay. ⁓ like I said, all all criminal matters start in district court. Now most of the criminal work that I do is high level felony work. N high level felonies are considered class E felonies and and above. Most of the stuff that is kind of mandatory active prison sentences. ⁓ that's most of the criminal work that I do. Class E is that high or class A high? Class E to A is is high. So A is first degree murder. ⁓ most common class E felony is ⁓ Trying to think of what the most common one is. I just throw in the It'll come to me in a second. Probably second degree kidnapping is probably the most common class. Second degree. Does that mean you were just next to the guy that did the first degree? You didn't ple pre plan that you didn't stalk them on sides, isn't right? It means that they weren't hurt when that's the yeah, move or or or worse, I'll just say it that way. Yeah, I gotcha. So what what do you think what separates a great judge from an average one? Like what what do you bring to the table with running for district court judgeship? So here's here's one of the biggest issues that that I see in that's missing in judges, and that really is the fact that most of our judges have a very, very singular knowledge in their in their legal background. And what I mean by that is is that they don't really realize the impact that one area of law has on another. Okay. ⁓ two years ago, two years ago, we got involved and and Monica and I work together. She's a certified paralegal. And so anytime I'll talk about my office it's we and talking about my wife and I. We got involved in a case where a judge who has this very distinct criminal background issues an order in a civil case. He issued a civil order And just didn't really realize the impact of that order and the implications of that order. And the problem is that there are a lot of judges that do that. They don't understand the impact of their of their orders because they're not used to practicing in civil courts. Because of the fact that I have I have worked in every courtroom in Cumberland County, I think that I I bring some really unique background to to the courtroom. The courts themselves routinely ask me for my perspective on things because of the fact that I have that unique perspective. And and that's one of the reasons that I think that I'm kind of uniquely qualified to be a district court judge and is just because of the fact that I do work in so many different areas of the courthouse and I have experience in so many different areas of the court. Does your opponent have have just criminal or Yeah strictly criminal and and almost strictly juvenile. ⁓ in fact my one of the one of the things that startled me the most about my my opponent, ⁓ last year in civil court ⁓ she was dismissing cases strictly because she did not have a just a fundamental understanding of what the jurisdictional basis of civil district court meant. And what I mean by that is There's a rule that says that civil district court says that therefore amounts and controversy up to twenty-five thousand dollars. And so if she heard a case come into her courtroom that was for more than twenty-five thousand dollars, she was dismissing it. And this was just completely shocking to me. She's been practicing law much longer than I have. And so it seemed something very, very fundamental, but she was just dismissing cases. There's no reason these cases should have been dismissed. Wait, dismissing, not referring them to another court. Not referring them to another court. She was dismissing them. She was kicking them out of court. She was telling them telling people your your case is dismissed. You're you're she was throwing them out of court. ⁓ what should she have done? She should have she should have done. She should have issued a judgment. These were these were cases where another party had not had not even shown up and The plaintiff was coming into court and saying, Hey, I'm asking for a judgment because the other party hasn't filed an answer. They haven't shown up to court. So I'm just asking the court to issue a judgment. And instead the judge was dismissing cases, saying that that I don't have authority to to issue a judgment because you're asking for more than twenty five thousand dollars. It was just wrong. And this is this is what I'm talking about. ⁓ this is a fundamental lack of understanding of the job. That's a great commercial right there. And ⁓ Thanks. I appreciate it. Maybe you can post this as a commercial. Absolutely. We could h we could find people that were dismissed and be like that this this happened to me. But this was this is just a fundamental misunderstanding of what the job is. And ⁓ and this is a problem where when you have had such a narrow practice, when your experience as an attorney is so narrow that you just don't understand the job that you are called upon to do. Because on any given day you can be assigned to any given courtroom. And the chief district court judge tries to assign judges to the courtroom that they pref that a judge prefers. But sometimes you have to fill the slot that you're put in. And I think that as a community, we need to be able to expect the judge that we appear in front of to know the job. To be able to say, hey, this judge is competent to understand what's expected of them today so that the decision is reached, whether I agree with the decision or not is irrelevant. But that I can feel confident that the decision that is reached is just based on the law. Again, whether or not I agree with it or not is is irr is irrelevant. I can just feel confident that it's being based on the law. And ⁓ you know, this is kind of what I was talking with with Councilman Hondros earlier. It doesn't really necessarily matter if I agree with what an elected official is doing. I'm just glad they're trying to do something. Right. Right. Right. It's the same thing with with judges. I don't have to agree with every decision that a judge reaches. I just need to feel confident that the judge is reaching a decision based on the law. And one of the reasons that I chose to run against my opponent is because I s more and more saw her making decisions that were not based on the law. And it's very, very rare ⁓ I can speak to Cumberland County because this is where I live. I've been here since two thousand and eight. So eighteen years. My entire practice has been here. ⁓ this is why I moved to Cumberland County was to practice law. Like I said, Ed Grannis brought me here. But You know, the ⁓ When you look at the judicial races, when you look when you look at the history of judicial races in Cumberland County, very rarely is a judge contested. That's true. They they're j judicial races are go uncontested almost universally. But the reason that I chose to run against an incumbent was because I just feel like as a community we deserve better. So what what do you think is challenging Cumberland County courts the most? Well, one of the things that I believe is challenging the courts is that we we lack diversity of experience. Okay. You know Well, and I think I've mentioned I think we've had we have had other judges on here or judge candidates, and it's like ⁓ judicial candidates, excuse me, but ⁓ it's like just because lawyer does not good judge make. I think people don't understand. Well, ⁓ well they've been practicing for ten years, but if they've only been on this much of the law and in these courts, they don't you need to be more like a Swiss army knife of an attorney before you get to be a judge, it sounds like to me. Well be versatile. Well that's my opinion. You you need to be versatile. You need to be calm. You need to be able to listen to people and not immediately jump to conclusions. You need to be able to every now and then you need to be able to to just sit on your own opinion and not not immediately thrust your own opinion into everyone else's lives. Right. You know, this is one of the things that I was trying to talk about earlier. You know, just very, very seldom do I talk about how I feel about about issues because most of the time my personal opinions genuinely don't matter. ⁓ I would hate that life. Well but I love my personal opinions well I mean I love my opinions too but the truth of the matter is is that my job is fantastic. Because all I get to do is help people. Mm-hmm. That's always what I wanted to be in as a lawyer. So I had to help you. That's what I do every day. People bring me their problems and I get to I get to try to help other people in their problems. Mhm. I mean, there's no better way to serve the community than to try to help people solve their problems. Well, just like the song says, Nobody comes in here on a winning streak, right? You know. ⁓ you're not in district court for ⁓ because you did well. So let me ask you this. I so you know I do real estate and all, and I did I was in small claims a few weeks ago for an eviction. and the limit in small claims is what, ten thousand dollars. Ten thousand dollars. Well, the tenant owed me more, like fifteen or whatever it was. But right then the magistrate had the foresight to not kick me out. 'Cause what I did is I wrote everything that the person owed me. I knew was above the limit, but I wrote the the thing and I think I put a note per magistrate discretion or something like that. In other words, let's talk about it. And I went there and he says, Look, if you want to keep this here, you need to change this to see this. And I looked at the tenant, I looked at him, we all agreed, and we moved forward. So is that what's not happening with certain ⁓ judges right now? Just throwing stuff out? So could they have done the same thing? So so so that's a again, this is a difference in this is a difference in divisions. And s so important thing to know about magistrates. Magistrates are not necessarily even attorneys. Right. Okay. So it's important to understand that. And one of the things that the legislature has done in order to keep magistrates from from being completely ⁓ unhinged, okay, is they they have They have firm jurisdictional limits, okay? And they have and and they have firm personal jurisdictional limits and they have firm monetary limits, okay? In order to sue somebody in magistrates court and in small claims, excuse me, in order to sue somebody in small claims, at least one of the defendants must reside in the county. ⁓ that's different than in district court. But there is a firm jurisdictional limit of ten thousand dollars. Doesn't matter. You can sue somebody and say, hey, they owe me twenty thousand dollars, but I'm willing to just to to keep this simple and straightforward and to not have to deal with all the complexities of district court, I'm willing to say, even though they owe me twenty thousand dollars, I'm willing to say I'm gonna cap it at ten thousand dollars. Okay. If they appeal to district court, that ten thousand dollar cap is lifted. Okay. Okay. So now your full twenty thousand dollar ⁓ lawsuit is back on the table. But in small claims, there's a ten thousand dollar cap. Even though the cap is there in district court, twenty-five thousand dollars, all that really does is presents an opportunity for someone to say, because it's more than twenty-five thousand dollars, I wish for this to be elevated to a different division, that division being superior court. That's all that happens there. Okay. Okay. It's not like in small claims where there's a firm ten thousand dollar cap. All right. In district court, what should have what should have happened? ⁓ the judge should have issued a judgment. If the defendant had been there that day and said, Hey, they're asking for twenty-five thousand and one dollar. I'm asking that this be removed to a different division. Mm-hmm. That motion should have been granted. To remove it to Superior Court. The defendant then would have had to have paid court cost to remove it to Superior Court, and then it would have gone through the procedural requirements of Superior Court, which ultimately rem involves dealing with a different alternative dispute resolution mechanic, ⁓ mediation instead of arbitration. There's some different calendaring rules and things like that. But that's what should have happened. Instead Because she didn't understand the fundamental rules of civil procedure, she dismissed the case. Okay. But would she have had the same latitude that my guy in magistrate court had to say, well, you're asking for more, but this is as much as we can talk about today, so either reduce yours or we have to elevate it. I mean she would she have had she's a judge. She could have done that right. She's a judge. I mean, well she did do that. She's a judge, she dismissed it. Right. I mean and that's a court order. But she had the option to say if you two parties agree to one party didn't lower the well, one party didn't show up, but she could have done the same thing that the magistrate could have done. She could have done the same thing. She could have said, Hey, my my rule is I'm going to only reward you twenty five thousand. It sounds like you can be reasonable as a judge when you when you have the latitude and it's not ego all the time. It's not ego. Sounds like ego on ⁓ the incumbents part. So If elected, what is one thing that attorneys and citizens appearing before Judge Strange would be different? I ⁓ I've been doing this as an attorney for a long time and I deal with a lot of different people. Okay. All right. Like I told you earlier, before I became an attorney, though, I was a teacher. And as a teacher, I dealt with a lot of different parents. And one thing that I've always learned. Is just to remain calm and just to listen. And that's one thing that I can promise is that I will I promise just to listen. Because I don't know everything, but I promise to listen. And that's one thing that I just feel like my opponent sometimes doesn't want to do. She would rather be heard than to listen. And I promise. I don't like to hear myself talk. I believe that. I've got you. Yeah, who's got time for that? Right. Favorite legal TV show? I hate legal T V shows. I I absolutely hate Okay, worst legal TV show then. What do you think? I yeah. I I if I had to force you to sit in front and pull your eyes open, like what would be the worst thing for you? I okay. I I every one of ⁓ is so bad because they They always violate constitutional rights. Settlement agreements are always completely improbable, impossible. They they My wife loves suits. Suits. Okay. My wife loves suits I think it's for the eye candy in that one. Yeah. I think I don't know that she likes Meghan Markle. I don't think anybody likes Meghan Markle. Even if she did like Meghan Markle, I don't know that she does anymore. I did like her when she was on suits in that first beginning and then yeah, I don't like her. But but she used she used to like to watch suits. And ⁓ well suits is funny. It's more like a comedy than a procedural, I would say. think. I think she liked the one the this is she's laughing. Yeah. ⁓ she is. I think she liked the the young guy who who lied about being a lawyer. Right. But he took a test and he passed he passed the bar, but he didn't go to school. Mr. Photographic Memory, yeah. Don't we all wish yeah I I I don't I don't I don't watch and I'll have people tell me, ⁓ you need to watch this show. Nope, not watching that. Not watching that. It's like me watching cooking shows. I don't want to look at restaurant stuff when I go home. Okay, let me ask you a question. But Monica likes true crime stuff, and so she's always That's because she's looking to murder you. That's probably the I do forty eight hours, twenty, twenty, all that stuff. Okay, so when we that's how women relax my body. Yeah, they relax, watch a series. You'll never find my body. That's exactly right. I've learned how. But anyway, so we go to court. You up there on the bench, you got your b little thing, a cup of coffee, a cup of water. How come I can't have a bottle of water? Just curious. Probably because your bottle of water has vodka in it. no, mine doesn't. I don't drink alcohol, but I'm just curious. No, there are no food or drinks. You know, the ⁓ I think that ⁓ I get thirsty sitting there 'cause it's like you're in there for a long time. I don't have a good answer for you there. I was doing court watch, but they wouldn't let you bring a bottle of water. I'm not gonna Campaign slogan of like, you know, strange for judge. Ever drinks for everybody. Drinks for everybody. Yeah. I'm just saying I was g I was this round's on me. Right. I was doing court watch and they want you to be there for like four hours. Well, I'm not gonna sit there for four hours without a bottle of water and I'm not gonna kick. Would they even not let you in with your remarkable your tablet? They would not let me in with my remark because instead of having paper I wanted to just write on the form that I haven't I downloaded it to my remarkable. It's it's doesn't have internet. It's just it's for writing. It's for writing. And that's it. That's it. They're like, nope, we can't have that here. I would let you use a remarkable in my courtroom. ⁓ I don't know. Okay. Well strange for judge on that point. Let's go. I I think that I think that ⁓ I think that there are potentially some issues, okay, with the water. In the in the I think the issue becomes as soon as As soon as one person has water, then another person has a coke, and then somebody has coffee, and then the next thing you know it gets spilled, and then the next thing you know it gets it's in somebody's purse, and then somebody has a purse that's full of water and and then a fight erupts, and I can I can absolutely see it becoming chaos very, very quickly. I I I Okay, I can I can I can accept I can So as having learned that Roku T V has Jerry Springer twenty four seven. I don't I've never watched I've never watched them as far as them throwing stuff and using in a projectile. And and and one thing that I can tell you is that in and it's not just the courtrooms, I just think society as a whole is just becoming more and more prone to chaos. And ⁓ well that's because more and more people are absent one of these knuckle sandwiches as they grow up and they're behind their keyboards more. ⁓ yeah, ⁓ you don't have to weigh in on that one. Good butt whipping. Every child needs a good butt whipping from the dad. It's okay. And part of the problem is not enough dads at the Well don't know who the dad is. That's right. That's the problem. It who's your daddy is. Relax. ⁓ So ⁓ well Well let's do one word to describe your judicial philosophy. Balanced. Ooh, I like that. I like it. Let's let's go out on that note. So Thank you, Mr. Jonathan Strange, for joining us this evening. And thank you. Every time we see him, we'll call him Judge Judge Strange. So thank you to all of our listeners, viewers, commenters, and supporters. Local government does matter. School boards matter. City councils matter. District court judges matter, and informed citizens matter most of all. We'll see you next time on the Carolina Cabinet